Meditation On Catholicism And Protestantism
In my meditations on Catholicism and Protestantism, it seems to me that the Reformers have watered down the True Faith and are trying to live life with only half (in some cases a lot less) of God's revealed Truth. A couple of points that come to mind are Justification and God's Divine Providence.
As Catholics, we believe that we are saved by Faith AND Works.
Protestants however, fall short and say we are saved only by Faith.
The Protestant view is contrary to Scripture and God's intent.
We see in Dueteronomy that God's law tells us that we are to believe in God. We are also called to obey the law. Christ is the perfection of the law. One can't say that they have faith and not obey the law, because by having faith they have obeyed the law.
Jesus himself tells us in the Gospels that we will be judged by the deeds we do. If we say "Lord, Lord" and not do the works of charity we are called to do, then we are damned. For even the demons say "Lord, Lord."
Faith without works is dead. Plain and simple.
As for God's Divine Providence, Catholics believe that God pre-destines and yet we also have free will.
Some Protestants say we do not have free will, but everything we do has been fore-ordained by God.
Once again, the Protestant view limits God's plan.
We can't say how we have the freedom of free will and yet God has pre-ordained all existence. That is one of God's mysteries.
We do know, however, that God has left the choice entirely up to us to acknowledge him or not. If there were no free will, everyone would believe in God. Why would God not want his creation to believe in Him?
Likewise, if we did not have free will, there would be no sin in the world. For why would God want us to be separated from Him, since that is what sin does?
26 comments:
I viewed, a few days ago, a clip of Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert, on camera but off the record, making fun of Protestants. It was largely in very bad taste, but one thing Mr. Ebert said struck me as true: "Protestantism: the only religion with a Reader's Digest prayer book."
Byron,
When Paul is talking about not boasting of works, he is talking to Jews who are boasting that their covenant with God manifested in circumcision and animal sacrifice is all they needed. Paul tells them that it's not by these works of the law (sacrifice and circumcision) that they are saved. They have to have Faith. For, the Jews believed once you were circumcised you got a free ticket into Heaven no matter what you did. Paul was telling them that is not so.
Also please show me the exact verse in the Bible where the words "Faith" and "ALone" are next to each other.
Then answer me why whenever Jesus talks about judgement he says we will be judged by our works?
Protestants think it's "Faith ALONE", but it's not. It's "Faith AND" that saves us.
I've had Calvinist tell me that they didn't believe in free will.
Could you tell me what you believe on this?
Also, if you have any book recommendations or you can point me in the direction of any website that defines the belief to clear up any misconception, I would be very grateful.
Thanks and God Bless,
Danny
Byron,
Here is a link that will help show that we are not saved by Faith ALONE.
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/faith_vs_works.htm
Byron,
You seem to think that I think that we can work our way into Heaven. I didn't say that. As David mentions in the link, no amountof works can make up for Jesus's sacrifice. However, we can lose God's grace by not doing works.
As for the words, "Faith" and "Alone" being next to each other in the Bible, there is one place. It is James 2:24 and it says that we are Not saved by Faith Alone.
As for predestination.
You said:
"You may be right about Calvinists telling you that they didn't believe in "free will", and I'm sure that there are plenty! That said, Calvinism is only a part of broader evangelicalism, and even there, I have a Calvinist friend who doesn't per se deny "free will"; he just defines it in a way that I can't go along with."
I agree and I can't go along with it as well. I had the Calvinists strictly in mind when I wrote this post. If you don't believe the same as the Calvinists then that's good. You shouldn't take offense to what I wrote.
As for saying that Faith Alone saves us, that is a point we disagree on. I will read Sproul's book, however. Thank you for the recommendation.
Blessings,
Danny
Good explanation of Paul's teaching.
As a fellow Catholic apologist, I've always known that portion of scripture was being wrongly interpreted by non-Catholics and could never exlain it (because I never understood the underlying intent).
Thanks for the literal interpretation of this important passage.
Honestly, this is a bush-league kind of mistake on the part of SOME Protestants that really embarasses the rest of us. I remember attending a student missions conference with Josh McDowell nearly 20 years ago. Josh made the statement that the teaching that we are saved by faith is one of the greatest heresies ever devised. As 1500 students picked their jaws off the floor, he pointed out that Ephesians 2:8 states we are saved BY GRACE. There can be no question that the outworking of God's grace in our lives involves both faith and works--you have to ignore a lot of verses to suggest otherwise.
Some of us Prots do have this one figured out.
Byron,
Just a couple of questions:
In 1 Cor 13:13, it says, “Faith, hope, and love abide, these three, but the greatest of these is love.” Why doesn’t it say the greatest of these is faith? After all, if salvation is the ultimate goal, and the only way to reach salvation is through faith alone, why isn’t faith greater than love?
Also, Why is it that the only time the words “faith” and “alone” are next to each other in the Bible (James 2:24) it is to say that we are NOT saved by faith “alone”? In that same verse it also says “You see that a man is justified by works.”
Here are some Bible passages to think about:
Romans 2:6…God will render to every man according to his faith? No…according to his deeds.
James 2:12-13…God will judge without mercy those who have shown no mercy; which fits well with the next verse…
Matthew 6:15…God will not forgive you if you have not forgiven others; which fits well with the next verse…
Matthew 18:23-32…God will not forgive those who do not forgive others. In other words, we can’t be saved by faith alone…we have to forgive others to be saved. Isn’t that a work?
Matthew 25:31-46…how does God separate the sheep from the goats? By their faith? No…by what they have done.
Matthew 7:21…how do we get into Heaven, by crying Lord, Lord? By our faith alone? No…by whether or not we have done the will of God.
Rev 20:12…the dead were judged according to their faith? No…according to their works.
I could go on and on…every passage in the New Testament, that I know of, speaks of people being judged by their works, their deeds, by what they have done or by what they haven’t done. Not a single passage that I know of says that we will be judged by our faith alone. Yet you believe that! Why? Because people, not the Bible, have taught you that. Don’t get me wrong…I believe we are indeed saved by our faith, but not by our faith “alone.” I don’t believe that because God’s Word doesn’t teach it. Faith and works are both necessary responses to God’s free gift of His grace. If I believed in salvation by works “alone,” which I don’t, I could make a much better case for that from the Bible than you can for salvation by faith “alone” from the Bible.
In Christ,
Danny
Ha! Frank,
Good job! I'm glad you could see that I didn't intend that all Protestants thought it. I knew Anglicans believed in Faith and Works!
In 1 Cor 13:13, it says, “Faith, hope, and love abide, these three, but the greatest of these is love.” Why doesn’t it say the greatest of these is faith? After all, if salvation is the ultimate goal, and the only way to reach salvation is through faith alone, why isn’t faith greater than love?
At the end of our 'sojourn' here what is left for us in Heaven? Faith gives way to sight, the hope is fully realized. Love remains. The end of the passage, where this nugget of a verse resides, deals with growth and progression. Keep in mind context.
Also, Why is it that the only time the words “faith” and “alone” are next to each other in the Bible (James 2:24) it is to say that we are NOT saved by faith “alone”? In that same verse it also says “You see that a man is justified by works.”
We are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Faith is a conduit, to use an example. With out the conduit, the primary material cannot flow. A man is jusified by his works because those works rise OUT OF the GRACE of God in his life THROUGH the conduit of FAITH. We talk glibly about 'my faith or your faith', really that is incorrect. Look at Galatians 2:20. We live BY the faith OF the Son of God who loves us and has given himself for us. Therefore we do not frustrate what? the GRACE of God. The conduit of faith allows grace to flow freely. To live BY something is to have the power of it applied. The faith is OF the Son of God - that speaks to its essence, character and source. It's Christ's faith given to us, not our own.
Here are some Bible passages to think about:
Romans 2:6…God will render to every man according to his faith? No…according to his deeds.
With out the faith it is impossible to please God. So why would God judge a man on something he doesn't possess? He judges him on the outworking of his inner reality.
James 2:12-13…God will judge without mercy those who have shown no mercy; which fits well with the next verse…
James deals in practical everyday things. There is a government of God over his house. Certain codes of conduct are expected and enforced.
Matthew 6:15…God will not forgive you if you have not forgiven others; which fits well with the next verse…
Matthew 18:23-32…God will not forgive those who do not forgive others. In other words, we can’t be saved by faith alone…we have to forgive others to be saved. Isn’t that a work?
To not forgive another is to deny the forgiveness of God. I submit that one who cannot forgive another hasn't repented to the point of being forgiven of God themselves. It's a road sign. Is there a greater offence that can be done to me than I have done to a lovign God who sent His Son as the propitiation for my own sin offence against him? No.
We don't forgive other TO BE SAVED, we do it BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED and KNOW FROM WHAT and TO WHAT we HAVE BEEN SAVED.
Matthew 25:31-46…how does God separate the sheep from the goats? By their faith? No…by what they have done.
Here, and as in the case of the tree examples in Scripture, it is a case of essence and nature. God separates sheep from goats, not good sheep from bad sheep or good goats from bad goats. If the passage were written that way I would conclude as you do. But it isn't. The sheep and the goats are 'pre-identified' in the passage. So it isn't a matter of what is done, it is a matter of WHO you ARE. The sheepliest goat and the goatliest sheep won't trick the eye of a thrice holy God.
Matthew 7:21…how do we get into Heaven, by crying Lord, Lord? By our faith alone? No…by whether or not we have done the will of God.
Crying Lord Lord isn't always done in faith. Again the Lord knows the heart. The only one that can do the will of God is the one who has the Spirit of God inside him. The Spirit knows the mind of God. The Spirit also is the witness to our spirit (notice the Capitals) that we ARE the children of God. so those who have the Spirit leading and guiding them are the saved, they are the called according to His Purpose, those who are created UNTO good works.
Rev 20:12…the dead were judged according to their faith? No…according to their works.
Who are the dead in this passage? Is it the physically dead or the Spiritually dead. Those who are saved are not referred to in Scripture as the dead - they are the quickened, they are the children of ligth, they are the living.
I could go on and on…every passage in the New Testament, that I know of, speaks of people being judged by their works, their deeds, by what they have done or by what they haven’t done.
Yes you could. But you need to show the context of the judgment in each of those passages.
Not a single passage that I know of says that we will be judged by our faith alone.
Again - correct. It is Chirst's faith. God judges not His Son again EVER - he did that on Calvary's cross! Once and for all.
Yet you believe that!
Again, you've placed a belief on us that isn't correct. Perhaps you've never come across those who can provide the defence of the hope that uis within them - as you state is your noble mission (and I applaud you). He that searches will be found of a seeking and saving and blessing and teaching and protecting and... God!
Because people, not the Bible, have taught you that.
Don't presume what we have been taught. Non-catholics return the favor heartily - I suggest instead you ask regarding the teaching instead of stating it. I'll follow my own advice too!
Faith and works are both necessary responses to God’s free gift of His grace.
Yes - but they aren't an internal response; their are a foreign response planted by the Spirit of God.
All in all a good posting, lots to think about.
In kind ... in Christ.
Sprocket
PS: Not Catholic, Not Anglican, Not Protesting either ... ;)
In 1 Cor 13:13, it says, “Faith, hope, and love abide, these three, but the greatest of these is love.” Why doesn’t it say the greatest of these is faith?
Because faith and hope will only last in this life. Love will last for eternity. When we are in heaven, we will no longer need faith and hope.
Also, Why is it that the only time the words “faith” and “alone” are next to each other in the Bible (James 2:24) it is to say that we are NOT saved by faith “alone”?
It says we are not justified by faith alone, in the context of faith without works being dead. Deeds flow from faith. Works are the evidence of true, life changing faith. Unfortunately, many of my "saved by faith alone" fellow believers mistake true, life changing faith with mere belief.
Romans 2:6…God will render to every man according to his faith? No…according to his deeds.
Look at the context of who Paul is writing to in that verse: The unrepentant. Yes, we will be judged by our deeds, but in a very different context than unbelievers. Unbelievers judgment of deeds will be for their punishment. The deeds of those who are saved will be for reward (1 Corinthians 3:14). If we have no deeds (death bed conversions, I believe), we shall be saved as one "escaping through the flames" (1 Corinthians 3:15).
verses on mercy/forgiveness
James 2:12-13…
Matthew 6:15…
Matthew 18:23-32
The point of these parables/verses is to show that lip service faith (or mere belief) is not true, life changing faith.
Matthew 25:31-46…how does God separate the sheep from the goats? By their faith? No…by what they have done.
No, he separates them by who they are, saved or unsaved. The saved (sheep) have faith, and their works flow from their faith. The goats have no faith, so their works are useless.
Matthew 7:21…how do we get into Heaven, by crying Lord, Lord? By our faith alone? No…by whether or not we have done the will of God.
Look at verse 22. It speaks of their "works" being useless, because they had no true faith.
Rev 20:12…the dead were judged according to their faith? No…according to their works.
See my response to Romans 2:6 above.
I could go on and on…every passage in the New Testament...,
We are saved by our faith, and judged by our deeds, but the nature of our judgment depends upon our faith, whether we are judged for rewards (1 Cor 3), or for the punishment of the unsaved.
Faith and works are both necessary responses to God’s free gift of His grace.
If I believed in salvation by works “alone,” which I don’t, I could make a much better case for that from the Bible than you can for salvation by faith “alone” from the Bible.
I disagree. What about death-bed type conversions? What about the thief on the cross? He had no time to do works, yet Christ himself proclaimed him saved. In Luke 7:50, Christ proclaimed the woman "saved by faith". Ephesians 2:8 says it is by grace we have been saved, through faith.
You seem to misunderstand the "Protestant" view of salvation by faith... as many Protestants unfortunately misunderstand it as well.
Sprocket and Name Hidden,
The probelm with the Protestant doctrine of Sola Fida is that there is a wide range of belief on the doctrine between protestants. Calvinists have a different belief than that of Lutherans, etc. etc.
See:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp
and,
http://www.catholic.com/library/Reward_and_Merit.asp
That's what happens when people allow human pride to get in the way of the Holy Spirit, as I believe happened in Catholicism very early on.
The probelm with the Protestant doctrine of Sola Fida is that there is a wide range of belief on the doctrine between protestants. Calvinists have a different belief than that of Lutherans, etc. etc.
I think you need to drop the polarization of Catholic Vs Everybody as Protestant.
This might have been an accurate prtrayal during the reformatio, but today it in't warranted.
There is a diversity in interpretation - but again I appeal to only One Truth. Calvinism, as an example, takes a concept to the extreme. It is an outlier. Those who aregue against it also take thier argument to the extreme; they also are outliers. God's word provides a pure balance.
I don't beleive the Catholic interpretation of the 'Protestant Doctrine' of Sola Fide.
I, as I have said, believe faith is the ONLY conduit of God's Grace. This is consistent with the OT patriarchs - Abram, Moses, etc. and it is consistent with what the Apostles and NT writers put on 'paper'; Eph 2:8-9 clearly says, For it is BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED, THROUGH FAITH — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast.
I am saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Anything else is a error.
The verse also says that I HAVE BEEN SAVED - past tense. This speaks directly to statements made by many that we cannot know if we will be saved. Again, many err concerning this verse.
The also say IT IS A GIFT OF GOD. The GRACE, the FAITH or the SUM OF IT ALL (salvation of the soul)?
In the Biblical interpretation 'guide' you posted somewhere else this interpretation hold true.
As for your links...
Grace: I don't beleive concerning grace what catholic.com thinks I do.
I cannot count how many erroneous statements are made regarding how I see grace. These errors are attributed to me by you.
Ask me what I beleive - don't tell me what I beleive. I'll quote myself ...
Don't presume what we have been taught. Non-catholics return the favor heartily - I suggest instead you ask regarding the teaching instead of stating it. I'll follow my own advice too!
The context of their remarks goes back to the reformation. I don't necessarily ascribe to reformation ideology, nor am I entrenched in that time period. I was born and live in THIS time period and the Bible is relevant to me today BECAUSE the Spirit of God MAKES IT SO. It isn't inconsistent yet it is updated for me and you in today's day.
If you want to go through those two articles you posted start separate threads. Perhaps we can learn something about grace and what each other actually believes. We need to stop the projection that has been rampant since the days of the reformation. No more bucketing - please!
Also, you want to go into the high levels of education. As one who is just finishing up my own Master's degree I have found it is IMPERATIVE to succeed you must be open and willing to investigate that with which you do not agree and at times that which you don't even understand. I read the course description ... I presume they are not misleading you when they refer to this discussion, exposure and investigative type of learning.
Sprocket,
You take Eph 2:8-9 out of context when you say,
" clearly says, For it is BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED, THROUGH FAITH — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast. I am saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Anything else is a error. "
Paul is saying that the Jews aren't saved by the works of the law (circumcision).The Jews were boasting that they were saved by the Old Covenant rituals of circumcision and aniaml sacrifice. Paul says no. That is not true. Don't boast and think you've got it made because you are circumcised, for God looks for circumcision of the heart. He's telling them that in order to be saved they must believe in Christ. But he isn't saying that the only thing they have to do to be saved is to accept Jesus Christ into their hearts as their personal savior.
Look at James. He says that we are not saved by Faith alone. Faith without works is dead.
When Paul and James talk about Justification they both use the same Greek word.
However, when talking about works they use different words and are talking about different things.
Paul talks about the works of the law (OT rituals). These laws required by God in the OT weren't God's origianl plan for humans. He gave them these ritual laws after Israel committed apostasy with the golden calf. Before that they only had the moral laws (the ten commandments) and every first born son was to be a priest. After the calf is when the Levites inherited for themselves the priesthood by slaying the idolaters. From then on Israel had to daily sacrifice the gods (demons) they had worshipped, as a sign of faith to God. When Jesus comes he fulfills the ultimate sacrifice, doing away with the OT ritual laws. You see God's plan wasn't for his people to sacrifice for ever as the Jews believed. God was weaning them off of their apostasy, by making them continue to slay their false gods day after day.
Circumcision came about because Abraham slept with his Egyptian slave Hagar and bore Ishmael. Abraham wanted Ishmael to be the inheritor of God's plan. God had a different plan. God waited until Ishmael was 13 (the age when the Eygptians were circumcised) and told Abraham that if he wanted to act like an Egyptian he would have to be circumcised like one as well. Abraham was 99 at the time. Not the most pleasent thing at any age let along 99.
Paul is telling the Judaisers that just because they are circumcised doesn't mean they are saved. Many surrounding countires practiced circumcision as well.
When James speaks of works he speaks of charity; the corporal works of mercy.
I plan on doing a much bigger post on Justification. Stay tuned.
Both Paul in Ephesians 2:9 and James in James 2:20 use the greek word ergon for works/deeds.
Also, Ephesians was written to a group of Gentiles (Eph 3:1 - For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles)
I believe you are reading context into the verse, according to your own beliefs.
You take Eph 2:8-9 out of context when you say,
" clearly says, For it is BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED, THROUGH FAITH — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast. I am saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Anything else is a error. "
Paul is saying that the Jews aren't saved by the works of the law (circumcision).
True. Nowhere are we saved through works of any kind either. See Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
The Jews were boasting that they were saved by the Old Covenant rituals of circumcision and aniaml sacrifice. Paul says no. That is not true. Don't boast and think you've got it made because you are circumcised, for God looks for circumcision of the heart.
And this is different in character from those who belive in salvation through the Catholic Church? I have heard this from some.
But he isn't saying that the only thing they have to do to be saved is to accept Jesus Christ into their hearts as their personal savior.
Again you mistake works as a generator of salvation. Accepting Christ into the heart causes the changes in the soul such that the Spirit of God 'makes a home there' (just like you article on graces states). When the Spirit takes up residence the behavior of the individual changes - they show out the good works that they were created (new in Christ) unto. This is in keeping with the WHOLE of Scripture. Man cannot earn NOR maintain his salvation by works.
Look at James. He says that we are not saved by Faith alone. Faith without works is dead.
When Paul and James talk about Justification they both use the same Greek word.
Are you a Greek scholar? I have heard these types of claims to be made and then I (as an amateur) open up the lexicon to find them false. I'll go and look it up. Stay tuned.
He gave them these ritual laws after Israel committed apostasy with the golden calf.
Go read it over again. You've mistake cause for chronological order. The law was given because Israel said 'all the the Lord has said we will do'. They put them selves under law.
Before that they only had the moral laws (the ten commandments) and every first born son was to be a priest.
You positive about this statement?
When Jesus comes he fulfills the ultimate sacrifice, doing away with the OT ritual laws.
Truth of God! Amen!
You see God's plan wasn't for his people to sacrifice for ever as the Jews believed.
Hebrews tells us a different story. The sacrifices pointed to Christ.
Circumcision came about because Abraham slept with his Egyptian slave Hagar and bore Ishmael.
It is a sign of denial of self and the death of the 'old man'. Which again agrees with the truth that man cannot earn nor maintain his salvation by works. Paul says put off the old man and put on Christ, he also says mortify the deeds of the flesh. Circumcision points to this.
Abraham wanted Ishmael to be the inheritor of God's plan.
I think you need to read it again.
Paul goes to great lengths to break down the spearation of Jews and Gentiles and makes the statements in the verses we are looing at independent of either class of people.
When James speaks of works he speaks of charity; the corporal works of mercy.
When are the outworkings of the grace fo God through an indivudal in the conduit of faith not charitable? You split haris here to make your point. James deals with the practicality of what is the deeper theme taken up by Paul.
I plan on doing a much bigger post on Justification. Stay tuned.
Ok.
I looked it up ...
I triangulated on 4 translations:
NIV - New International Version
ESV - English Standard Version
DARBY - JNDarby's translation
KJV - 'authorized' King James Version
If you'd like to add others feel free - the more disparate sources the better we get on accuracy.
In the english translations the word justification is found in:
Ezekiel (NIV)
Romans (NIV,DARBY,KJV)
Galatians (ESV)
NEVER in James
In the english translations the word justified is found in:
Job (DARBY,KJV,ESV)
Psalms (NIV,DARBY,KJV,ESV)
Isaiah (DARBY,KJV)
Jeremiah (KJV)
Ezekiel (DARBY,KJV)
Matthew (DARBY,KJV,ESV)
Luke (NIV,DARBY,KJV,ESV)
Acts (NIV,DARBY,KJV)
Romans (NIV,DARBY,KJV,ESV)
1 Corinthians (NIV,DARBY,KJV,ESV)
Galatians (DARBY,KJV,ESV)
1 Timothy (DARBY,KJV)
Titus (NIV,DARBY,KJV,ESV)
James (NIV,DARBY,KJV,ESV)
The key verse in James:
NIV 2:24 - You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
DARBY 2:24 - Ye see that a man is justified on the principle of works, and not on the principle of faith only.
KJV 2:24 - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
ESV 2:24 - You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
The literal (word-for-word) from Young's is:
2:24 - Ye see, then, that out of works is man declared righteous, and not out of faith only
~ this verse clearly show that we justification is revealed by what is seen (works done) not by what is not seen (faith)
Again, James deals int he concrete and practical. I can say I have faith - what I do proves it (existance, quantity, quality). What I do then can't generate/maintain salvation.
Sprocket and Name Hidden,
Go back and read Paul's letters and look up the passages whenever Paul quotes from the OT. Then maybe you will be better able to understand what Paul talks about. For as Peter says in 2 Peter 3:16-17 about Paul’s letters: “There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability,”
Also instead of looking at what Jesus says in the Gospels about being jusged by our works through the lens of Paul, why not look at what Paul says through the lens of Jesus. Maybe then you will see why the Catholics believe what they believe.
Many Blessings,
Danny
Go back and read Paul's letters and look up the passages whenever Paul quotes from the OT. Then maybe you will be better able to understand what Paul talks about.
I already have, and I do. I suggest you do the same, but with an open mind.
I was raised Lutheran and went to Catholic school from grades 8 - 12. However, it wasn't until I approached the scriptures with an open mind, deciding to read them in context, doing EXACTLY what you said prayerfully and with reflexion and meditation that I came to the conclusions I have. It is why I am now a Baptist (the first in my family, I might add).
Maybe then you will see why the Catholics believe what they believe.
Having been around Catholicism for a lot of my life, I understand why Catholics believe what they do: Obedience to the Pope and the beliefs of the Catholic church. You believe what you believe because you are required to, which is why you take verses out of context to support your beliefs, reading meaning into the scriptures rather than the other way around.
For you to say that 2 Peter 3:16-17 applies to me simply because I don't agree with you is downright insulting, given how little you know of me and how I've arrived at my beliefs. I submit to you that those people Peter was talking about were part of the Christian leadership on and off for 1500 years. As Paul said to the Galatians, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump."
Now don't get me wrong, I have extreme respect for the Catholic church. I just don't agree with many of its doctrines.
Also instead of looking at what Jesus says in the Gospels about being jusged by our works through the lens of Paul, why not look at what Paul says through the lens of Jesus. Maybe then you will see why the Catholics believe what they believe.
Paul wrote in the context of Jesus. Jesus spoke to a Jewish crowd -- Paul was given the ministry of spreading the gospel and the truth of the Church.
You often mistake that Christ was first sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. They rejected Him and we benefit form their unblief - just as Paul says. Not everything Christ said applies directly to the Church.
Sprocket,
you said:
"Not everything Christ said applies directly to the Church."
You guys wanted to know what I thought heresy was? It is Sprocket's statement above.
How convienent Sprocket that you believe this. Now you can just through out any teaching of Christ you don't wish to obey and do whatever you want and believe whatever you want.
In the Catholic Church, we call that Cafeteria Catholicism.
Jesus is Lord of ALL, or none at all.
Name Hidden,
I would be curious to know how your conclusions led you to become a Baptist. If you don't want to write them out in this little comment box, feel free to email me at dmgarlandjr (at) yahoo (dot) com
Sprocket,
you said:
"Not everything Christ said applies directly to the Church."
You guys wanted to know what I thought heresy was? It is Sprocket's statement above.
Gosh you are quick to accuse.
How convienent Sprocket that you believe this.
How is it convenient?
Now you can just through out any teaching of Christ you don't wish to obey and do whatever you want and believe whatever you want.
What tezaching would this be? Keep in mind I'm the one who places more emphasis on the WOrd of God than you do.
In the Catholic Church, we call that Cafeteria Catholicism.
Again you accuse me of something you have yet to back up. That's two accusations and no proof of it.
Jesus is Lord of ALL, or none at all.
Yes He is. that's why I don't follow a pope or worship a jewish girl used of GOd.
How's that for sanppy. You see I didn't go there you did. Now I sit and wait for the vereation speech and not the idolatry speech.)
You don't build up or teach you tear down and destroy.
So here's one more chance ... stop and think a moment of what I said.
I said NOT EVERYTHING Christ said applies to the Church.
Look at his countless parables, they aren't all about the upcoming church - they are mostly about the decline of the nation of Israel; which God had invested must.
You tell me how the parables of the vineyeards apply to the church. Keep in mind they thrust our the Son and slew him. Is that characteristic of the Church?
It isn't of the church I see as laid out in the rest of Scripture.
Sure thing, Dan. I'll e-mail it to you later this week.
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